I had an interaction today on Facebook on the topic of hell. Since I spent so much time working on it I didn't want it to go to waste, so I'll reproduce it here.
Here is the initial interaction:
Thanks for taking the time to look into this, I’ll respond below:
//and there are a few verses you gave that proves there will be an eternal torment.//
None of the verses I shared teach eternal torment, it has to be presupposed and read into those verses as we’ll see as we go along.
//Is 66:24 says the same thing as Mark 9:43,44,45,46,48, that is referencing the lake of fire, not hell.//
First, the lake of fire IS hell. Hell, Gehenna, the lake of fire are all terms for the final punishment after the resurrection of the dead. What you are calling hell the bible calls hades and is called by theologians the intermediate state. Luke 16 takes place explicitly in hades and not hell since the rich man’s brothers are still alive. Luke 16 is a parable and not a recounting of actual events, but that’s another topic, suffice to say, hades is not final punishment.
//Is 66:24 says the same thing as Mark 9:43,44,45,46,48, that is referencing the lake of fire, not hell.//
Mark 9:43 says:
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
I’m confused by your statements because you say mark 9 is about the lake of fire, that hell is not the lake of fire, but Jesus explicitly uses the term hell. You’re contradicting scripture.
I’ll address Rev 20 later, but let’s look at Mark 9 and Isaiah 66.
Jesus quotes Isaiah 66:24 without changing any other words. This is significant because some intertestamental literature DID change Isaiah 66:24 to make it teach eternal torment. Judith for example as well as some rabbinical literature. Some rabbinical literature from the time of Jesus did change “worm” to “spirit” thus making Isaiah 66:24 teach eternal torment, but Jesus does not go with those rabbis but instead goes back to the text of Isaiah thus revealing that Jesus thinks the more recent changes were incorrect.
The text of Isaiah 66:24 says:
And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.
Notice that it is DEAD BODIES that the worms and fire are consuming, not living conscious persons. These are corpses, slain by God back in verse 15-16:
For behold, the Lord will come in fire, and his chariots like the whirlwind, to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire will the Lord enter into judgment, and by his sword, with all flesh; and those _slain_ (not tormented) by the Lord shall be many.
You said //The worm here is in reference to one’s soul// This is reading your presuppositions onto the text. The word for worm means a worm. It’s a maggot that consumes a corpse.
You might respond “but it says the worm does not die, that means they are tormented forever”
It does say that the worm “shall not die” but this doesn’t mean that the worm will live forever, it means that the worm will not be thwarted from consuming the corpses.
The phrase “shall not die” is used 16 times in the bible, 15 times it always refers to being put to death prematurely and the 16th time is Isaiah 66:24. Here are some examples of the phrase being used elsewhere that demonstrate that the phrase does not mean that they are immortal but that they won’t be put to death prematurely.
Gen 42:19-20 if you are honest men, let one of your brothers remain confined where you are in custody, and let the rest go and carry grain for the famine of your households, and bring your youngest brother to me. So your words will be verified, and you shall not die.” And they did so.
Judges 6:22-23 Then Gideon perceived that he was the angel of the Lord. And Gideon said, “Alas, O Lord God! For now I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face.” But the Lord said to him, “Peace be to you. Do not fear; you shall not die.”
1 Samuel 20:1-2 Then David fled from Naioth in Ramah and came and said before Jonathan, “What have I done? What is my guilt? And what is my sin before your father, that he seeks my life?” And he said to him, “Far from it! You shall not die. Behold, my father does nothing either great or small without disclosing it to me. And why should my father hide this from me? It is not so.”
So you can see “shall not die” does not mean in this context “live forever” but it means shall not be put to death prematurely. When it says that the worms “shall not die” it means no one will intervene to remove them to give the bodies a proper burial.
You may say “but it says the fire is not quenched, that means the fire burns forever” but this is not so. The bible uses unquenchable fire many times to describe the irresistibility of God’s judgment and is used in cases where the fire clearly went out after the judgement was complete.
Jeremiah 17:27 But if you do not listen to me, to keep the Sabbath day holy, and not to bear a burden and enter by the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will kindle a fire in its gates, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem and shall not be quenched.’”
This is the exact same words “shall not be quenched” that are used to describe the coming judgment brought by Babylon. The fire consumed the palaces and gates of Jerusalem and burned them to the ground, but 70 years later Nehemiah was able to come and rebuild the walls because the fire had burned out long before.
If you want more evidence that this is the proper understanding of unquenchable fire in Isaiah 66, consider the number of parallels between Isaiah 1 and Isaiah 65-66. More than a dozen themes that are introduced in Isaiah 1 are concluded in these last chapters. Verse 31 of Isaiah 1 says:
And the strong shall become tinder, and his work a spark, and both of them shall burn together, with none to quench them.
To quench a fire means to put it out. Isaiah says in chapter 1 that there will be no one to put out the fire of God’s judgment, and repeats this in chapter 66 by saying the fire will not be quenched. This means that Isaiah is trying to convey that these judgments can not be resisted, not that they go on forever.
When Jesus quotes Isaiah in Mark 9 he does so without altering his words, which means that Jesus means the same thing by it that Isaiah did, that God will slay his enemies and they will be no more.
//Not only does Dan 12:2 say that after death there will be everlasting life or everlasting contempt,//
I’m glad you mentioned Dan 12:2. Here is the text:
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Notice that it is only SOME who will have everlasting life. The alternative to life is death, not life in torment. Jesus echoes this same sentiment in John 5:28-29:
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
Only some will receive life. What Jesus calls “judgment”, Daniel calls “shame and everlasting contempt”. Notice that eternal torment is not mentioned at all. The only thing that speaks to what the lost will feel is “shame”, and notice that that shame is not said to be eternal. What is said to be eternal is contempt, which is not what the lost feel but what the righteous feel toward the lost.
Now the word that is translated “contempt” is only used in one other place, Isaiah 66:24 where it is translated “abhorrence”. It is the feeling that the righteous will have when they look on this pile of corpses being consumed by fire and maggots. “and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” The reason this contempt is said to be eternal is because after this judgment, there will never be anything to change our memory of these people. Just as we all look back on Hitler, or Genghis Khan, or Judas and feel disgust, the same will be said for those who are executed by God.
Daniel was writing two centuries after Isaiah, and I think it was intentional that he chose to use this same word, that only appears in Isaiah 66:24, to describe what happens at final judgement to point his readers back to understand just what is going to happen after the resurrection. They will be raised (Dan 12) Judged (John 5) and slain (Isaiah 66) and forever remembered with contempt/abhorrence (Dan 12)
//The worm here is in reference to one’s soul. Here are other verses that back up all of the above: Math 13:42,50 Math 18:8 Math 25:41//
Math 13:40-42 _Just as_ the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Jesus says “just as” which means what happened to the weeds is what will happen to the lost, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned” (Greek - Katakaio) the Greek word here means “burned down” it means to be completely consumed. In the Septuagint (Greek translation of the old testament) in the section about Moses and the burning bush, it says the bush was burning (kaio) but not consumed (katakaio) and yet Jesus says that the weeds will be “katakaio” burned down, and that the fate of the lost is “just as'' the fate of the weeds. This is a picture of utter destruction, not eternal torment. The burning bush would be an apt depiction of eternal torment, but Jesus says it’s going to be the opposite of that.
Jesus says they will be thrown into “the fiery furnace” I believe he is drawing on two images.
1. Daniel, where the three are thrown into “the burning fiery furnace” which was meant to kill them (not torment them) but by God’s grace they were preserved unharmed.
2. I think Jesus is alluding to Malachi 4:1-4:
For behold, the day is coming, burning like an _oven_, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be _ashes_ under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts.
Ashes can not experience torment. The picture in Matthew 13 is of utter destruction, not eternal torment. If Jesus had wanted to depict someone existing forever in flames rather than someone destroyed by the flames he could have used Paul’s analogy “gold, silver, precious stones” or as some of the early church fathers did who, when trying to illustrate eternal torment, departed from the examples of scripture (which are all very consumable things such as weeds, dead trees, branches, etc…) and said that the lost would be like rocks thrown in the fire, or salamanders, (which at the time were thought to be able to live in fire) or asbestos.
Math 18:8-9 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.
First off, notice that this passage is covering the same topic as Mark 9, meaning Matthew and Mark are likely referring to the same teaching, and we saw in Mark 9 that Jesus refers to Isaiah where Isaiah says God will slay his enemies and their corpses will be consumed by fire and maggots.
Notice also that Matthew equates the “eternal fire” with “hell” showing that they are speaking of the same event.
Hell here and in Mark 9 is translated from the word “Gehenna” which is derived from the valley of the sons of Hinnom. In Jeremiah 7:30-33 it says:
“For the sons of Judah have done evil in my sight, declares the Lord. They have set their detestable things in the house that is called by my name, to defile it. And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere. And the dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the air, and for the beasts of the earth, and none will frighten them away (this also speaks to the irresistibility of God's judgment like worms not dying and fire not being put out).
The valley of the son of Hinnom will become the valley of slaughter, not the valley of eternal torment. When Jesus uses “Gehenna” he is alluding to this valley where the Israelites sacrificed their babies to Moloch and where, when the Babylonians conquered Jerusalem, they threw the dead bodies of those who they killed (it is also incidentally where the Romans threw the corpses when they destroyed Jerusalem, burned the Temple to the ground, and killed more than a million Jews in the process) If you wanted to give an example for final punishment, this example speaks of execution and not of eternal torment.
Why does Matthew call it “the hell (Gehenna) of fire” because in Isaiah 30:33 it says:
For a burning place has long been prepared; indeed, for the king it is made ready, its pyre made deep and wide, with fire and wood in abundance; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of sulfur, kindles it.
The word translated “burning place” is Topheth, a place that is in the valley of Hinnom where they sacrificed their children to Moloch. Topheth and Gehenna are the same place. Isaiah says that in Topheth, God has prepared a fire that is kindled by his own breath. This passage is describing a judgment against the king of Assyria, an execution. So the “hell of fire” is even more evidence for execution and not eternal torment.
Why does Matthew call it “eternal fire”? Well it would help to look at the three places where the phrase is used in scripture. The first is here in Matthew 18 where it is equated with Gehenna, Topheth, the valley of slaughter, thus indicating that whatever eternal fire is, it’s product is death. The second is Matthew 25 which we will get too shortly, and the third is Jude 7, the only one that gives us an example so we can know clearly what eternal fire does. Jude 7 says
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
So Jude says that S and G underwent “a punishment of eternal fire”. What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah? Well Peter, when writing on these same matters says
if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly
So eternal fire:
1. Turns people to ashes (ala Malachi 4)
2. Condemns to extinction, not eternal torment. And Peter says that these two components together show us “what is going to happen to the ungodly”
Is Sodom still burning today? You can visit the area today and see for yourself that it is not. So eternal fire doesn’t mean that the fire burns forever. Then in what sense is it eternal? I would say in two senses,
1. Whatever is destroyed by this eternal fire is destroyed forever. Unlike so many ancient cities that were destroyed and rebuilt, destroyed and rebuilt, over and over again, Sodom was never rebuilt, it was destroyed forever. As David says about his enemies
The enemy came to an end in everlasting ruins; their cities you rooted out; the very memory of them has perished.”
eternal fire destroys forever.
2. The fire comes from the eternal God himself. Genesis 19:24 says:
Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Lord out of heaven.
The Lord rained fire “from the Lord” meaning from God himself. All throughout scripture the eternal God himself is described as fire and fire comes forth from him.
Deuteronomy 4:24 For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
Daniel 7:9-10a “As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire.A stream of fire issued and came out from before him;
Exodus 24: Now the appearance of the glory of the Lord was like a devouring fire on the top of the mountain in the sight of the people of Israel.
Revelation 1:14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire
Isaiah 30:33 For a burning place has long been prepared; indeed, for the king it is made ready, its pyre made deep and wide, with fire and wood in abundance; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of sulfur, kindles it.
Revelation 20:9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,
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Math 25:41 and 46 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. … And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The final punishment comes via eternal fire and it results in a punishment that is eternal.
The punishment is death, it is eternal because it will always be that way. “The righteous will have eternal life because they will never die again. The wicked will have eternal punishment because they will never live again.” As John Evans said “for no law ever did or can inflict the punishment of death for a limited period”. They will always be dead, there is no second resurrection, there is no coming back, there is no second chance. Once executed on the day of judgement, their punishment is eternal.
As Augustine said:
"Then as to the award of death for any great crime, do the laws reckon the punishment to consist in the brief moment in which death is inflicted, or in this, that the offender is eternally banished from the society of the living? And just as the punishment of the first death cuts men off from this present mortal city, so does the punishment of the second death cut men off from that future immortal city. For as the laws of this present city do not provide for the executed criminal's return to it, so neither is he who is condemned to the second death recalled again to life everlasting."
If it seems strange to you to call death an eternal punishment, not because it is experienced forever, but because death will last forever, consider that the bible does this with other terms.
The bible speaks of "eternal sin" this is not a sin that you _do_ forever but a sin you do in time that has eternal consequences.
The bible speaks of "eternal judgment" this does not mean that the process of judgement takes forever but that it happens in time and its results are eternal.
The bible speaks of "eternal redemption" this does not mean Jesus is redeeming forever but having redeemed at a moment in time, that redemption lasts forever.
The bible speaks of "eternal salvation" this does not mean that we are being saved forever but that once we are saved, that salvation lasts forever.
The bible speaks of an "eternal inheritance" this does not mean we will be inheriting forever but that once we have our inheritance, we possess it forever.
The bible speaks of "eternal destruction" this does not mean being destroyed forever (for how can anything be said to be being destroyed if it never is fully destroyed?) but a destruction that, once it is accomplished, lasts forever.
So you see it is perfectly consistent with scripture to call a punishment that takes place in time "eternal" if it's results last forever."
//You can see that clearly in Mark 9 and Is 66 where the reference is to Rev 20:10-15, especially in verse 13 as it says that the sea, death and hell were judged and in verse 14-15 says that who ever was not found in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire, and that is the second death, the death that Rom 6:23 is talking about.//
I agree that Mark 9, Is 66, and Rev 20 are all referring to the same event, but again, it is not “hell” that is thrown into the lake of fire, it is hades, the intermediate state, the realm of the dead.
This is the death that Rom 6:23 is talking about and it is called the second death because it will be the second time people die, if the second death is something all together different from the first death (since the first death is not eternal torment, but the loss of life) then in what sense can it be called “second”?
The first use of the term “second death” in scripture is earlier in Revelation 2:10-11:
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’
The first death mentioned (“be faithful unto death”) refers to the loss of life, for the second death to be “second” it has to be the same kind of thing.
Here is where it is important to lay out a principle in interpreting Revelation, since the book is a long series of visions, the things that John sees are not to be taken literally, they are to be understood for the meaning they are trying to convey. This meaning is most clear when John, or God, or an angel gives a direct interpretation of something in the vision. The vision on it’s own would be difficult to understand if it were not interpreted for us. Some examples:
Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
John sees: elders holding bowls of incense
The reality: the prayers of the saints
Revelation 17:1 and 15 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters, … And the angel said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages.
John sees: Prostitute sitting on many waters
The reality: peoples, multitudes, nations, languages
Revelation 20: 11-15 Then I _saw_ a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This _is_ the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John sees: people being thrown into a lake of fire
The reality: this IS the second death
In each instance (and there are more) John sees something, but the thing that he sees is not the reality, but is a symbol for something else. This is how apocalyptic imagery works and it’s found all throughout scripture. No one thinks that pharaoh's dreams about cows were really about cows. No one thinks Nebuchadnezzar's dream was really about a statue. No one thinks the beasts in Daniel were actually beasts in reality, there is a symbol and it means something different in reality. When God and John interpret the lake of fire (Rev 20:15, Rev 21:8) they interpret it as the second death. This then connects with the HUNDREDS of passages that speak of the end of the wicked as death, destruction, perishing, being no more, etc…
//It seems that you are looking at the words “Destruction" and “Perish” as if they are to say that one will be blotted out and no longer exist. //
That is because this is what these words mean. I could quibble over "no longer exist" since I didn't use that language, but I won't.
///The meaning of the two words couldn’t be farther from the meaning to no longer exist or to be blotted out.//
You are 100% wrong. In Gen 7:23 it says:
He blotted out every living thing that was on the face of the ground, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens. They were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those who were with him in the ark.
When describing the flood in Luke 17:27 Jesus says:
They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
The root word translated “destroyed” is the same word that is translated “perish” in John 3:16, that is translated “destroy” in Matthew 10:28 so this means that “destroy/perish” literally does mean the same as “blotted out” in these contexts.
//A simple word search in the dictionary will revel the meanings of these words and they do not mean more than to reduce down to a lesser state and to stop/cease to live.//
I don’t know what dictionary you’re using, but destroy, as used in the new testament to refer to what one active agent (i.e. God) does to another (i.e. humans) it ALWAYS means slay/kill.
Matthew 2:13: Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.”
Herod wanted to kill Jesus, not “reduce down to a lesser state” and it’s the same root word that’s used in John 3:16 and Matthew 10:28
Matthew 12:14: But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him.
The Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus, not “reduce down to a lesser state” and it’s the same root word that’s used in John 3:16 and Matthew 10:28
Matthew 22:7: The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
The king killed those murderers, not “reduce down to a lesser state” and it’s the same root word that’s used in John 3:16 and Matthew 10:28
As one person said “My mind fails to conceive a grosser misinterpretation of language than when the five or six strongest words which the Greek tongue possesses, signifying 'destroy,' or 'destruction,' are explained to mean maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence. To translate black as white is nothing to this."
//The teaching of being blotted out and that hell is not really a place, or that you will just cease to exist is a false doctrinal heresy taught by the Jehovah witness.//
First, I didn’t say that “hell is not really a place” I said “The bible teaches that hell is a place of execution, not eternal torment.” Hell is INDEED a real place, the bible refers to it as “Topheth” and “Gehenna” and “the lake of fire” it is a place where there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth” it is a place of judgment, it is where their worm shall not die and the fire shall not be quenched, so to say that I’m saying that “hell is not really a place” is a lie.
Second, to say “the teaching… is a false doctrinal heresy taught by the Jehovah witness” is
A. The logical fallacy of guilt by association. Would it be fair to say that eternal torment is “a false doctrinal heresy taught by Islam”?
B. Ignorant of history. Annihilationism was taught in the very early church by multiple early church fathers, it was a view that popped up again during and since the protestant reformation and it was VERY common in the middle of the 19th century and it is from these protestant, evangelical conditionalists (the name we give ourselves, it stands for conditional immortality as opposed to universal immortality as eternal torment teaches) that Charles Russel got his understanding of final punishment BEFORE he abandoned the bible's teaching on the nature of Christ and started his own cult.
Now in closing, I appreciate your interaction. I hope after reading this you will see that there are lots of reasons to challenge the traditional understanding of final punishment as being eternal torment. I have barely scratched the surface of my studies over the past two years, but what I have learned is that if you will take off the assumptions that you bring to the text about final punishment, and read the words of scripture for themselves, in their own context, you will see with me that the doctrine of conditional immortality is one of the most clearly taught doctrines in scripture. It’s nearly on every page. I’m up for further interaction, but I understand that I’ve given you a lot to digest. I hope things are well with you.
